Comments on: Giuliani gives wings to an oft-perpetuated lie

By: David D

David D — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 03:33:27 +0000

This is my first comment on this blog. Thanks for doing this, yall!

I think you need to clearly define who’s lies count. It should be readily evident that vp/p candidates and the respective campaigns should count. But do you count affiliates in the party? IT might be adviseable to decide how far down the “chain of command” you will go. That will also help us as “lie searchers”.

IN respect to this post, i have two things to say. First, I agree with DC that this lie seems a bit nitpicky (it seems like an accidental untruth to me), but I understand about wishing to flag everything. Secondly, Michael, before you assert something in a blog post about lying, you may want to fact check your claims. [url]http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/did_mccain_crash_five_planes.html[/url]

By: Michael

Michael — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 20:10:41 +0000

It’s certainly a bit nit-picky but nathan is right - different words evoke different reactions. Saying ‘fighter’ evokes the subconcious idea that there is a level playing field of offense and defense - saying ‘bomber’ evokes the idea of dropping bombs indiscriminately (within reason). It changes the context of McCain’s war record….

It should also be noted that McCain crashed 5 planes during his tenure in the air force and graduated in the top 10 worst students of his class. Had his father and grandfather not already been entrenched in the military system he likely would never have flown a single plane. Nepotism abound.

By: John McCain

John McCain — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 18:54:12 +0000

Seriously? We’re really going to count this as a lie? Wouldn’t bombing someone be considered fighting? I would want to fight someone that bombed me.

By: nathan.clark

nathan.clark — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 14:10:12 +0000

DC - You can check out the “what is a lie” entry to see why we consider any deceptive, wrong statements in the context of these campaign a lie.
You make many points that seem valid about his training and the plane’s abilities. That does not negate the fact, though, that McCain has self-identified himself as a bomber pilot and not a fighter pilot. I would argue the training was distinct, their function distinct and thus their titles and associations in the minds of most Americans different and distinct.
Perhaps this lie is trivial and would not affect the public vote. Or perhaps saying ‘fighter pilot’ adds luster to McCain that “bomber pilot” would not. In any case, there’s is no credible basis we can come up with for determining when lies are acceptable, therefore we flag them all in the hopes for accountability that leads to superior campaigning and eventually superior leadership. Should Guliani elect to clarify his misuse of fighter pilot we’ll happily remove the point and amend the post.

By: DC

DC — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 13:21:28 +0000

Honestly, liecount is going to tally this as a lie?
A lie must meet two conditions, it must be
1) false
2) have the deliberate intent to deceive.

I seriously doubt that Guliani or any other of the countless reputable news sources that refer to mccain as a “fighter pilot” have the intent to deceive the American public.

Here are the facts,

Mccain was assigned to the USS Forestall, and requested a combat mission as a means to serve his country. Certainly a “top gun” kind of move.

He was sent on bombing mission in a navy carrier jet. the a-4 skyhawk. The A-4 is a lightweight single engine attack jet that is equipped with two internally mounted 20mm (.8 inch) cannons, and tactical missiles that are used for, you guessed it, dog fighting.

Perhaps Mccain was not a fighter pilot, but he certainly was trained in the exercises needed to win a dog fight. As is every Navy pilot.

Calling this a lie is like calling Obama’s 57 state incident, or renaming ohio to new pennsylvania an out right lie.

Please use more discretion when gauging the intentions of Mayor Giuliani.

Next.